Saiyuki Fanart - Gladiator!Gojyo
Sep. 8th, 2011 02:50 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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saiyuki_wk_auFandom: Saiyuki
Rating: PG
Characters: Gojyo, Dokugakuji
Summary: It's not that they want to, it's that, if they don't, the Empress will kill them both.
And, because the important part is what's important, a close-up:
And, as bonus, the pencil drawing:
Not that I'm going to change anything after the endless hours I've spent on this (things to do? What's that?), but I'm open to concrit anyway and I'd love to hear what doesn't work for you.
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Date: 2011-09-08 01:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 05:08 pm (UTC)I think that, if bad comes to worse and the Empress makes the fight to death, they'll refuse to really kill each other and start a revolution. I bet that Kougaiji, the Empress' son, Hakkai, a distinguished patrician, Goku, the champion gladiator in spite of his short height and young age, and Sanzo, the high priest will be on their side.
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Date: 2011-09-08 01:29 am (UTC)(Also dem thighs. Oh *Gojyo* *w*)
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Date: 2011-09-08 05:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 01:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 02:15 am (UTC)This, exactly! I had "grim tension" in my head as I hit the comment link!
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Date: 2011-09-08 05:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 05:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 02:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 05:26 pm (UTC)Poor Gojyo. Not even in the AUs has he an easy life!
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Date: 2011-09-09 01:37 am (UTC)The "fisherman" image also works really well with the kappa connection, or Kenren's fishing hobby...and as pretty much the least esteemed class of gladiator, that fits his hard life in canon.
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Date: 2011-09-09 06:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-09 07:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-09 07:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 03:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 05:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 03:14 am (UTC)I love the way, he is sinking down and shifting his weight to keep his balance well centered, while still retaining some control over his direction. It's a great pose and a very seasoned stance. He looks experienced and knowing. The muscle definition is beautiful.
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Date: 2011-09-08 05:32 pm (UTC)I'm flattered you think so highly of the pose. I gave it much thought, because it's difficult for me to come up with scenes that aren't too static without screwing up the balance completely (in fact, it's difficult for me not to screw up the balance even in purposefully static poses...).
Ha, ha, I'm glad those two evenings researching anatomy paid off!
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Date: 2011-09-08 03:23 am (UTC)The first thing that hit me was the light and shadows. That strong sunlight suggests a time of day so strongly - late afternoon - the sun would be low enough on horizon to be blinding him. I'm really in love with the dark shadows and where they fall at his calves. Combined with the ground shadow it really cements it someWHERE. I think I'd like to see some suggeston of that really bright light on the wall behind him too... the shadows, where he blocks the light would really add some dimension back there. (I know you are done working on it... but... you know... )
Now I'm tempted to go find you real soft white and obsidian black pencils. I think I'm really aching for those tiny but sharp suggestions of lightest light and darkest dark. They are in there but I think a tiny but sharp suggestion of both would really punch the whole thing up. Working over the sketch I think your color/shading got a touch muddy.
One small anatomy crit - it looks like his right shoulder is dislocated. I think maybe the angle of the collarbone is a bit too high... maybe. The proportions are spot on compared to the other side... it has to be that high angle contributing to it.
And I agree... mmmmmmm... look at those thighs! I really like that left thigh - that shading in and around the thigh and knee is one of the most solid parts. Quite nice!
I like the way you framed it with Doku. THERE is that dynamic comp you were whining about! I think I would probably crop it just below his shoulder level - that empty V of space between shoulder and arm isn't doing anything for the composition. I'm not sure what is going on with it - try covering up that little part at the bottom and see if you can see what I'm talking about... I think it is a center of focus issue. That empty V is kind of acting like a drain instead of leading the eye to the center of attention.
*sigh* Feel free to publicly flog me for running on...
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Date: 2011-09-08 06:05 pm (UTC)XDDDDDDD!!!!
Well, I suppose they feed him better in this universe. Canon!ikkou is scary in its general malnutrition. I don't have excuse for the sudden development of shoulder broadness, though.
I'm glad you don't think he's floating, because the ground is not a big help in that sense *scratches head*.
That thing you mentioned about the light is one of the things that drives me a bit crazy in this pic. Because it's obvious that Gojyo is illuminated from above and the front (with a sad lack of highlights about which I'll talk later), but the background is more or less in shadows because I wanted Gojyo to stand out from it, and it obviously doesn't fit the with general lighting (it doesn't look like a sudden cloud, precisely). But if I had followed Gojyo's scheme of light with the background, I assure you that they would look flatly put together in the same plane, especially because I used a different technic with both and the (I think they are pastels) I made the background with are definitely blunter and didn't allow me the definition the shadow lines between the bricks/ashlars of a sunlit wall should have.
Ha, ha, funny that you mention the white/black pencil, because when I choose a non-white paper, IT'S BECAUSE I WANT TO PUT HIGHLIGHTS, DAMMIT!! But I'm stupid and realized much later that the white pencil I had didn't really work, it was a bit bluish and it only destroyed the texture and mixed the other colours instead of really covering with white. So I had to live without it. Because, even if this pic is rather big by my standards (bigger than a DIN A4, I rarely do that), Gojyo was still two small to be coloured with the pastels and still keep the definition I had achieved with the pencil (I'm not good with pastels), so I used the pencils the same box contained, thinking they would have a similar texture. They didn't. So yes, it's sort of muddy and a bit more of contrast would help. And I should try to buy quality materials once in a while.
Really? It's the left shoulder that looks totally out of proportion to me (especially in Gojyo, who isn't especially broad-shouldered. Although it could be worse, it could be Sanzo...). But yes, I agree on the collarbone. I've been researching muscles of the back and the legs these days, but I always forget to practice on collarbones, because I always put them where I want, and not where they should be.
I can't crop the pic (even if I admit that the void there is distracting. There's even a piece of paper missing) because it messes up with the composition in a bad way. Gojyo's eyes (and Dokugakuji's) would fall too low then, unless I also cropped the crowd above, and I can't do that because it adds a third plane of proportion which really helps with the depth. So I think I should have thought this differently, with the two of them maybe closer and Doku's arm higher so that the framing was more complete or something. I don't know.
Thanks for the analytic comment!
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Date: 2011-09-08 07:56 am (UTC)If you ever say again you can't draw I'm going to sprout wings and fly to Spain and thrash you soundly because you are lying!!!! I could never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever in a billion quadjillion years come up with something like this. My god that is beautiful, how in the hell do you manage that much detail in the hair??? Hell anywhere!
The only thing that looks odd to me (and I have squat knowledge of art, so don't pay any attention, I've seen in comments that other people think it's one of the better parts of the picture) is that left knee, the shading behind and around the kneecap looks a bit to dark or something, his knee looks kind of odd, like the kneecap is dislocated. The only other thing is the light areas around the trident he's holding kind of looks like it's glowing.
Irregardless, this just...holy hell amazing. I zoomed this and got right up on my monitor and looked at it for a good half hour admiring all that amazing detail. His chest and abs are just....mindblowing well done, I wanted to lick the screen XD and again the hair, wow. How long did this take you to do????
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Date: 2011-09-08 06:52 pm (UTC)I have a notebook where I make some sketches to see which ideas are going to be transformed into a full-fledged illustration and which ones are shit. And the fact is that I suck hard at sketching and my points of view are always frontal and boring, and that frustrates me to no end. So that you can see what I'm talking about, here are some examples for this prompt:
This was my first attempt. Gojyo is most obviously not in movement here, even if he theoretically is. I made a second attempt just above him, which is like a enraged Superman that doesn't really work, either.
This is the winner of this round. I redid the legs twice because the poor thing had no balance. Still frontal pic.
And this is the fucking mother of the frontal pics. Impossible to make it more boring. If I had tried to make it purposefully 5-year-oldish, it would have turned out much better.
This is a desperate attempt at not making a frontal pic, but it's still static and doesn't work at all. I hate zenital points of view, dammit.
And well, I think that's enough and you get the idea. I've been reading a really awesomely drawn comic lately, and it's still hard to face that I can't draw like that. Talented people are able to make the most incredible doodles in no time, but I have to work hard to make a crappy sketch and it still ends up looking stilted and frontal and static, but a better image is not in my brain. As I said, it's a bit frustrating. I still have to work a lot, I don't practice enough and I know it's my fault, but once in a while, I feel like whining.
Thank you very much for your words and forgive the rambling!
It's funny how people would admit not having knowledge of art, as if that would prevent them from having a valid opinion or something! XD! (I do that a lot, too, to be honest). That dark part of the knee, just like the dark part of the face, wasn't supposed to be part of the shading, but blood! That's why, in the pencil drawing where there's no shading, they're dark, too. Gojyo was supposed to be wounded already. I unfortunately didn't make it obvious enough in the finished pic, because I went for the limited tonal range and I fucked up with the intensity of things so that skin, loincloth, shadows and blood ended up looking exactly the same. There was supposed to be a bit of blood on the ground, too, but the projected shadow ate it up in its most part. But I still appreciate that the intent was nearly visible and that you thought it didn't fit the rest of the light, because that was more or less my intention (not very well carried out, but still). And the trident... well, I was quite afraid of it ending up blurred if I tried to do the background so closely to such a thin stick, so I left it like that. I'm glad you pointed it out like something that doesn't exactly convince you, next time I'll take the risk.
This took me around 6 hours. I'm pretty slow (another reason why I like whining!).
Thank you very much for your comment, it made me very happy!
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Date: 2011-09-09 12:20 am (UTC)Eh, I can form opinions on just about anything I know what I like and don't like, just with something where I don't have much knowledge in the field I want to be upfront that my opinion is coming from an untrained point of view, so if I'm commenting on something that there was no other way to do I'm not being a total ass or something Xd
okay, looking at it I can see how that might be a bloody spot, it just looks more like shading. I know you are done with it, but maybe next time you something like this have drips running down from it, that might get the idea across a bit better? (wild assed guess on my part)I cut my leg the other day and it looked like some weird vine made out of blood was climbing up my leg.
Six hours, wow. I would have thought a lot more time than that for all that detail!!
I still say oh, you CAN draw, but I do grasp that you want to expand your awesomeness to other viewpoints :D I totally get that, I'm the crazy person who wanted to get a picture of a covered bridge but didn't want one from the road like what were on all the other postcards, so climbed down a bank and waded out into a cold river on slimy rocks to get shots of it from a lower angle and from the side...sold that one for a postcard company actually, which was why I was all about "not the same shit I've already seen!!"
How long did it take you to master the pose/angle you currently have down pat? I bet you had to draw a ton of pics to get it down that well...I'd say pick a pose/angle and start doodling it on a regular basis until you work out the kinks?? I've shot and re shot and re shot some things a gazillion times trying to get that "unique" take on the photo. The aforementioned bridge I think I had over 70 photos of that thing from virtually every angle you could think of, including standing on top of the bridge itself! (I was much younger back then and able to monkey around!) I don't know if you've ever drawn from photos (I know some people who do) maybe find some with the person in the pose/perspective you want and just use that as a guide and draw a bunch of characters using the basic form as a guide?
I really wish I could draw, I would have a field day with stuff like this. (I have way to much time on my hands.) However, between being a left forced into ambidexterous (which messes with your brain) and math learning disorder which skews my ability understand and draw perspective and shading (they are percentages after all!) I'm kind of out of luck there. Oh well, I can still sculpt and crochet and do photography!! Man I wish I had access to a pottery studio, I MISS pottery.
I'm glad my comment was helpful, I'm just a tad cautious when offering up opinions in unfamiliar territory ;D
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Date: 2011-09-09 07:43 pm (UTC)Ha, ha, you're totally right with the blood! I should have make it rivulet down in a consistent manner or something. With ramifications. Mmmm...
Really? I thought six hours was a lot! Pastels are really fast (at least the way I use them, I don't know if there's another more technically appropiate way to do it, probably there is), it was Gojyo and his pencil details which took most of the time. When I go for ink and watercolours it's actually pretty slower, because the inking takes incomprehensibly a fuckload of time. Well, the watercolouring too, but that's easier to understand and accept.
Oh, I can understand that "not the same shit I've already seen!!" concept in photography! Even if I nearly ever post my photographs on LJ (I always want to, but actually leave it for later), that's my main interest art-wise. I don't mind taking the same pics other people have taken before, but then the time comes when you get tired of that and want to do something slightly different. Rodchenko was really into this "new points of view" thing you mention.
How long did it take you to master the pose/angle you currently have down pat?
I have yet to!! XDDD!!!!
I don't know, I've been drawing (with intention) since I was twelve. I started with horses and trees and eyes. Then I drew faces. Finally bodies. Then scenes. It's been such a constant learning process that I don't think there's really a beginning and an end. I'm still working on it. Everytime I finish a pic I think "this is it, the best pic I've done till now!", but then, you will think it again when you finish the next one, so I can't really say "this is it, I've achieved the mastering of this pose!" because that's never true.
What I usually do when I need reference of a pose, is to go to the mirror. If it's a weird point of view, I take the camera and the tripod and take the photo from that poing of view, but the model is usually me, because it's the easiest. But I don't do that as study, but because I want to draw a pic about it in that very moment. Drawing from pics is tiring for me. From your head is more difficult but more fun. I should go out and draw people on the street, that's what I should do, but again, I'm laaaaaaaazyyyyyyyyy. So maybe I don't really have the right to complain.
I tend to think that drawing is only practice. Some people have talent and learn really fast, some people have problems and learn really slow, but they still learn. Are you sure you don't want to give it a try? It's frustrating sometimes, but I bet there's an actual, visible progress if you practice enough? Or you could find your own no-naturalist style, sometimes are the minds who work in a different way the ones to discover new ways to see things. Unless it's physically uncomfortable for you, of course. It's sort of surprising that you can sculpt but not draw. I thought sculpting was like drawing in three dimensions! So, for me, it's actually more difficult (please, excuse me if I say something stupid, this is actually a topic I know nothing about).
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Date: 2011-09-10 08:43 am (UTC)Things like symmetry and shading and perspective just go a.w.o.l. on me. For one I'm a leftie who was forced to try and be a rightie which pretty much screwed up my dexterity in both hands, and two, the math learning disorder (discalculia) which OMG explained all my fail in school (math, gym and art...I did well at all the other stuff.)
I look at a lot of the manga style art like Clamp's stuff with those INSANELY LONG and thin arms and legs and think that's almost as messed up as the stuff I draw! LOL. I have some art books I've downloaded somewhere or another ages ago that supposedly teach drawing manga and comic style, I will probably try to track down some pencils or something and give them a shot at some point during the cold months just for the WTF factor, it could be entirely to damn funny! Since all we have is a walmart here, the nearest art store is like 120 mile round trip, that kind of puts a spin on it too, along with the cost of art related stuff. I love colored pencils and dabbling with them. I forget what the brand is but there is a brand that's really expensive but OMG, so smoooooth and easy to use! Maybe if I hit the lottery I'll see if I can take an art class :)
You would think sculpting WOULD be of a challenge but for some odd reason for me it's not, I don't really know how to explain it, other than maybe to say it's where you can grasp dimensions and perspective a bit better because you can feel them with your hands rather than trying to translate something your eyes are seeing onto paper with a stick. Does that even make any sense? LOL. I think part of it is the medium you use as well. I can sculpt really well with porcelain, not so great with sculpy and not at all with say wood or metal. Part of it too might be I've always had horrible eyesight, no one knew I couldn't see past the end of my nose until I got into first grade and had to get coke bottle bottom glasses, so vision has not been my primary sense like it is for most, therefor translating visual cues to some other medium is not so easy for me, where as using my hands to form something makes sense, as touch was a goodly part of my means of relating to the world around me when I was little.
Or maybe it's just part of my contrary nature! I'm so weird.
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Date: 2011-09-11 05:26 pm (UTC)Sure. That's the reason why if you don't make it right it stands out like crazy. I think the human figure is really difficult to draw. So don't feel bad, because it's actually normal. But I still think it's fun to practice and everybody should draw shit sometimes. I'm a big fan of stuff drawn by people who say they cannot draw. There's some definite honesty there, and I'm attracted to that. That reminds me that Autumm is coming and I should host another contest of "fanart that looks drawn by a 5yo".
Funny, because you're the second person I meet through LJ who has discalculia. I didn't even know it existed a couple of years ago (dyslexia is far more common, I think).
Mmm... so explained, it makes sense. I hadn't realized. Drawing requires some capacity of abstraction, since the third dimension is only present as a mental conversion through the laws of perspective. Sculpture is more immediate, the third dimension is actually there. I think I get it now.
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Date: 2011-09-09 12:50 am (UTC)Full frontal is not a bad thing! Take a look at cover artists - Boris, Frazetta, Whelan. Your full frontal/duel gladiator sketch up there would make a great cover/splash page... if you flipped the comp to vertical instead of horizontal. That wide expanse of suggested colliseum and crowd with the highlight and focus on the two warriors in the middle... that is epic composition putting the focus where it is supposed to be. Comic panels do that with speed lines and wild action poses - they are trying to tell a story in 3" of space - the crazy poses are necessary to the storytelling. All of the greatest comic artists do single panel splash pages and the majority of those are full frontal 'static' poses.
Look up Byrne Hogarth. He has a whole series of books on old school classic comic anatomy. It seriously demystifies how comic artists do what they do.
Bottom line - your art isn't static because of your poses. You have a great eye for backgrounds and composition and, in the end, that is what is important. You can learn anatomy and poses - it's all just practice. BUT if you have no inner sense of design, there really isn't much you can do to learn that - you either have it or you don't. You have it.
So stop whining and get drawing! ;P
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Date: 2011-09-09 07:09 pm (UTC)Aaaargghhhh, full frontal is not a bad thing unless it's the only thing your mind comes up with!!
No, no, I was really lousy at composition just a few years back. For not talking about inexistent backgrounds and flat lighting and lack of atmosphere. I insist that I'm not naturally talented, I've just learned with time, just like I've learned anatomy and perspective. It's just a very long road and I'm not even half-way. I'm just wihing like the kid who wails "when are we getting there?" in the car. The process is soooo slow!! And I'm soooooooo lazy...!!! XD!
So you're right, I should stop whining and get drawing!
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Date: 2011-11-18 07:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-18 07:55 pm (UTC)But it's okay, I'm sort of happy with my limited talent, I still think I don't practice enough and that's sort of my decision, so I have no real right to whine. It's okay not to be a genius, I actually think being me is better.
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Date: 2011-11-18 11:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-18 11:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-18 07:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-08 10:30 pm (UTC)Thank you for sharing this fab picture.
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Date: 2011-09-09 07:45 pm (UTC)Oooooooh, that's wonderful feedback! Especially since I always tend to do static pics. Movement and tension are usually very difficult for me, so I'm kind of floating with your comment.
Thanks to you for watching and commenting!
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Date: 2011-09-10 02:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-11 05:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-12 12:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-12 01:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-10 02:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-11 05:30 pm (UTC)*nods, nods* And if Gyokumen still insists in turning her thumb down, I think a rebellion would be coming.
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Date: 2011-09-13 06:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-13 10:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-18 07:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-18 08:08 pm (UTC)Thank you!
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Date: 2011-11-18 11:40 pm (UTC)I don't know what Gojyo would have to do to get that body... I see him as lean muscle no matter what he's doing. If he over-fed, he'd probably get a little bitty paunch (and Hakkai would make pointed comments about it until he got it under control). But it is a beautiful AU Gojyo nonetheless.
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Date: 2011-11-19 12:02 am (UTC)Yep, I just think he isn't build like that, period, but it doesn't disturb me too much in an gladiator AU pic. I think. Ha, ha, I agree about the paunch! But that would only make him even more huggable!